Calvinism and Reform theology (the doctrines of grace) and the local church
Calvinism and Reform theology (the doctrines of grace) are simply the same thing with different titles. Let me clearly state up front I am not an authority on Calvinism and Reform theology. One reason is there is so much written and out there on this subject I refuse to make time to sift through it all. A second reason is, I have discovered that many people become reform theologians or Calvinists and this is their basis for belief and debate. I would rather be a Biblicist.
One interesting dynamic of Calvinism is that there are so many people who fit themselves with the title but believe differently than the next person with the title. An example would be:
- 5 point Calvinist
- 4 Point Calvinist
- 3 Point Calvinist
When you get below three most drop the term Calvinist.
Now that I have got you confused about points, let me just give you the five points of Calvinism.
The term used in the five points of Calvinism is TULIP. A tulip is a flower with 5 petals, all intertwining, and without which, it would not make up a complete flower. If one petal is removed from the flower, it ceases, for all intents and purposes, to be complete. It is the same with the essential doctrines of salvation. Each doctrine is essentially linked to the others. (LINK)
I am not promoting this so that you will believe it, I am asking you to seek what God would say, keeping everything in balance with the whole counsel of His word.
The IMPORTANT stuff for us.
Let me clearly state: Calvinism is not a cause for division, though many can make it such. Calvinism is a secondary doctrine, something not worth dividing over. Let's call it second tier doctrine.First tier doctrines would be those doctrines which are worth dividing over. The top of this list would be:
1 - The inerrancy of scripture
2 - The exclusivity of Christ for salvation
3 - The virgin birth
4 - The resurrection of Christ
IN CLOSING:
Many people take Calvinism to the extreme of Christian laziness, non-evangelical lifestyle and missionless living. This is a section of false Calvinism.
This subject has not crept into our church with a divisive head and I will do all I can not to let it. It is a subject which is being discussed but from the discussions I have been in, most people know very little about Calvinism and really don't want to know. The juicy talk about church splits, inside fighting seem to be the true motive for the discussions.
I'll be glad to talk about Calvinism with you but I will not cross the line into talking about other people or churches.
Where do I stand? On the Bible. Join me and let's tell people about Jesus.
The other side of the discussion is Armenianism.
26 comments:
Jon
excellent post about Calvinism.
here is a good read about Calvinism
http://www.calvinistgadfly.com/?p=48
Charles Page
it's Arminianism not Armenianism
Jon
Explain to me how Total depravity can be a second tier doctrine?
What variations of Total Depravity are you confortable with? The slightest move away from TD and you weaken the exclusivity of Christ for salvation. It is a give and take we cannot afford else just throw away the Bible.
I can't see wiggle room!
Your friend
Charles Page
Charles,
It does not surprise me you disagree and find nuances to argue about. Have at it. I am comfortable with what I wrote.
Jon said: "I am comfortable with what I wrote."
So does comfort determine truth?
Charles,
As far as I am concerned what I wrote is truth and I am comfortable with that. If you disagree with me, fine but simply because you disagree does not make my words untruth.
Bottom line, truth is comforting...
from "our sovereign joy" blog
A "modified-Calvinist" is no Calvinist at all. Whether one leaves out the "t" or the "u" or the "l" or the "i" or the "p," one is being inconsistent in his theology and in his assessment of human nature. That one is being inconsistent in his definition of sovereignty and unbiblical in his understanding of man's so-called free will. The more we attribute to man the more we take away from God. The more we exalt the sinner the more we lessen the holiness of God. The more power we grant to the free will of man the more we lessen the need for a Savior. If man, lost and dead in his trepasses and sins, can indeed be just as responsible for his own salvation as God is, and this is what our being able to decide or not implies, then man is in essence, co-redeemer with Christ; He did His part, now I can do mine, or not. The gospel is then reduced to an option, a "take it or leave it" proposition. Does this sound like the gospel to you? Does this sound like the Biblical presentation of the cross to you? "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-and righteousness and sanctification and redemption-that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the Lord" (1Cor.1:30-31).
Sorry Charles I have no need to compare jots and tittles with you.
Let me say... The whole of Calvinism is second tier stuff. By that I mean it is not worth dividing over, a statement I made very clear in my blog.
I know you see it differently. You want to bring division if others don't agree with every jot and tittle of Calvinism. All I will say is take your gun to another hunt, we don't hunt and shoot that critter on this blog.
I am not about division but about people coming to know God's grace, though faith.
You ought to start your own church, it is possible that there your take on these things will be fully accepted.
Enjoy...
Charles, I am deleting your posts which are accusatory and slurring. I have no need to debate you on what you are unwilling to think through.
Post all you need about what you believe on your own blog. Don't come here and try the unchristian antics like you use elsewhere.
Charles,
You are wrong, the delete simply means this is not a place for debate or argument. It is a place for me to inform others of who I am, what God is doing in my life and the Truths I am led to share.
It is not a blog for you to hijack and dictate the discussion. You have your own personal blog to do with what you wish. If you want to contribute things which encourage instead of degrade, please do so.
I think Mike Bratton gave you the same privilege. Please don't abuse your welcome by typing your personal graffiti on my blog space.
Give us the name of these Calvinist who: "take Calvinism to the extreme of Christian laziness, non-evangelical lifestyle and missionless living. This is a section of false Calvinism."
These Calvinist need to be purged from the ranks. You are doing a good job of purging the Arminian rank. Protecting them from the dangerous Calvinist.
your friend
Charles
Charles,
Why would you think I am not a 5 point Calvinist? Just so you will know I adhere to the 5 points of Calvinism. I believe them and trust them. I also know that I do not have all knowledge of all things, including man's free will.
The five letters you need to be concerned about are not TULIP but the ones which save... JESUS.
Please do not waste your time posting if you want to argue and debate. Time is to precious to waste debating these things. Go tell someone about Jesus and lead them to the throne of grace.
Your own link say this "There are two views concerning the Gospel of Jesus Christ. First, there is what we call Calvinism. Then, there are varying degrees of unbelief." jon, your own link
Jon, then you do a 180 turn around and say: "Calvinism is not a cause for division, though many can make it such. Calvinism is a secondary doctrine, something not worth dividing over. Let's call it second tier doctrine."
Many good precious Arminians believ:
1 - The inerrancy of scripture
2 - The exclusivity of Christ for salvation
3 - The virgin birth
4 - The resurrection of Christ
Just made me think you were a good precious though "inconsistent" Arminian
just like Adrian Rogers!
Please forgive me if I was wrong.
a Calvinist (5 point TULIP/Jesus)
Charles
Charles, scripture tells us Lot's girls got him drunk and then you know what happened. That does not mean God supports such behavior.
The same for any link I give.
It is not that hard to comprehend.
Not for the sake of argument but discussion: Explain to me how Total depravity can be a second tier doctrine?
What variations of Total Depravity are you confortable with? The slightest move away from TD and you weaken the exclusivity of Christ for salvation.
Since we agree that our salvation is not of works then we must agree on depravity. The reason our works don't merit is our depravity.
If there is the slightest degree of alteration in our depravity then there must be a corresponding degree of exclusivity of Christ for salvation. If you move toward moderated depravity then don't you take the risk of making
Christ's exclusivity another "nuance" or "personal graffiti" much like the Jehovah Witnesses?
In all sincerety I can't understand why you say you are a five p[oint Calvinist and then say Calvinism is second tier doctrine.
I question the existence of second tier doctrine. I would believe that the points of Calvinism intertwine with what you call "first tier" making them a unit.
Don't you think so?
Charles
Charles,
It is not one individual thing about the TULIP doctrines but the whole of Calvinism which should not cause division.
I do not know any SBCer who does not believe in the total depravity of man.
What you can't seem to grasp is that Calvinism is not a one issue discussion and many make it a take all or nothing fight. This is why as a whole is is a second tier concern to me.
from some of your other posts on other blogs I doubt it is for you. Fine, just don't become legalistic with me about it.
You said: "I do not know any SBCer who does not believe in the total depravity of man."
That being so explain to me how that a man TD can exercise faith to accept Christ. (I assume that you believe that TD means according to Rom 3:10-18 No man turns to God)
Now Calvinism says that prior to faith and belief the elect are regenerated and this is because of TD. The domino belief of TD is therfore unconditional election, limited atonement, irestible grace and perseverance of the saints.
Now most SBCers are opposed to this (following AR's lead) What do these men believe about how we get saved, if in fact we are TD?
Jon, I am trying to learn what the SBC believe and the more I ask the less I know. Help me here. If I am legalistic, bear with me.
Charles
Charles,
It sounds as if you are trying to put the SBC in a "I believe this" box and you can not do such a thing and let us still be baptists.
Many SB's would not accept the complete 5 distinctives of Calvinism. Does this make them bad or wrong?/ To some but that attitude in and of itself is wrong. It is legalistic.
I don't care if a fellow baptists believes if God predestined all who would be saved or that, in their understanding they believe it is a choice they make. Bottom line is are we going to win the world to Jesus or ask the world to believe like us before they can be accepted into God's family. I'll choose the former.
I've served overseas and the differeing beliefs are great but the two things that draw these people together is:
1 - There is no other way under heaven to be saved than through the name of Jesus (God's only Son)
2 - The Bible is God's written word to us and is true throughout and sufficient for all things.
"I don't care if a fellow baptists believes if God predestined all who would be saved or that, in their understanding they believe it is a choice they make. Bottom line is are we going to win the world to Jesus or ask the world to believe like us before they can be accepted into God's family. I'll choose the former."
So as long as we are winning souls to the church then the truth is relative and the outcome determines it's validity.
So it doesn't matter to God or His Word whether we are Calvinist or Arminian. As long as we are winning souls to Him.
When I say I am a bold Calvinist, Spirit Filled and Evangelistic Is God as pleased with me as He is you? Are we both in the same box?
My Calvinism embraces both #1 and #2 Can I, a Calvinist, lift up my holy hands and worship God in your church? Will either of us have restrictions?
Charles
Charles,
You are welcome to come to my church as long a you do not become a stumbling block to the church or those God sends our way to hear the good news of Jesus.
If we give them Jesus we give them Truth. So Truth is supreme.
Jon
I would be a great asset to your Church. Not because of me but the great God who is with me. He is a sovereign God. I am filled with the Holy Spirit and where ever I go I spread edification.
I have been serving the Lord for 0ver 50 years and I haved yet to be at a place where I did not spread edification to people. Of course There have been people who did not like me but neither did they all like Christ.
I'll bet you can say the same just not the years!
Charles
Charles,
In all honesty you have not demonstrated edification through much of what you have written online and in other blogs.
I encourage you to register at
www.baptistlife.com
and join the discussion there. There ar esome great Calvinists and others who love to debate against. It might be a good home for you.
Jon
I don't debate I am involved in spiritual warfare in defence of the pure gospel. Pray for me in my struggle. Hopefully God will win in the end, though so far in sight.
So many SBC ministers to help and so little time!
Charles
Jon:
I agree with you, the issue of "Calvinism" should not divide the church.
BTW, (as was pointed out) it's Arminianism with an "i" (Armenians are from Armenia, Arminians follow the teachings of Jacobus Arminius). It's also Reformed Theology, not Reform.
I'm not a follower of John Calvin, but a biblicist. ;)
Thanks for the post.
It sure doesn't seem to edify when one comes onto a blog site and begins to tear apart someone else's belief. I wonder how and why one tries to evangelize when those he is evangelizing have no choice in the matter. It seems to be logical that a Calvinists time would be better spent worshipping and learning all he can about the One who chose his salvation for him than evangelizing and arguing over the 5 points.
Jon, haven't heard ferom you in a while. where have you been?
read my new blogpost
http://watchinghidtory.blogspot.com/
thanks
Charles
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